PG: Do you want to tell the story again about how you got into it?

DG: Basically I came back from school out of Maryland and I didn’t really want to do anything that really, that was ... well, when I was at Annapolis there was kind of a more political agenda like you may be good at something but only if someone likes you do you get advancement and I wanted something really pure, it didn’t matter if someone liked you or not, if you ran hard and you trained hard and you pushed yourself hard, that you did well and that’s like what all true rhythms are, there’s nothing political about it at all, it’s all like you and the mountains and
nothin’ else, no one’s gonna stop you. You’re gonna be responsible for yourself. People will help you along the way and they’ll be a part of your success but ultimately you’re gonna run the race.

PG: So how did you find that though?

DG: Well, I read a book, Dean Karnazes’s book about running ultra marathon’s and the way he described, you know, the adventure of running point to point, 100 miles and the western states trail, that was pretty intriguing, that was what I wanted all my life to do. All day, maybe all night adventure, it was just a no brainer.

PG: Yeah, was that the first ultra race that you did? Western States?

DG: No, actually it took me a few years to actually get to do it. The first race I did was a 50k up in Berkeley, California and there were all these redwoods and it was beautiful and gorgeous and I didn’t really know that much about electrolytes. But I did that and I was just hooked so it was about a month later I jumped up to a 50 miler out here in the San Gabriels and then that kicked my butt and I was pretty beat up after that but I still wanted to do another so a month later I did a 100 miler up in Auburn and then year by year I got into the mountain running scene and did a little bit steeper and harder and longer stuff and had some success and finally got to run Western States last year and had a good time - 18 hours and 9 minutes ...

PG: And that’s a 100 miler?

DG: That’s a 100 miler, yep.

PG: Wow. (laughing) That’s just crazy. The more I hang out with people who do that, the more feasible it seems but it still seems kinda mystical ... you know I just think ... the number?

DG: Yeah. It is completely ridiculous but at the same time it’s something that you really believe in - there’s this level of idealism and commitment that makes it plausible you know, like if you stop in the middle of your 100 miler and you think, this is ridiculous, this is not possible, then you’re screwed. It’s like way harder than it needs to be. But if you kinda just, if you believe it, you know, you drink the Koolaid and you think this is normal, this is what you’re doin’ today ...

PG: Yeah, and not even that it’s normal but that it’s essential ... it’s what you have to be doing. I mean, even with a marathon, it’s not a 100 mille race but that’s always been my way of kind of getting through it, while I’m running, like any of those sorta existential feelings of doubt or weirdness about being a human being or being not there in the slightest bit ... everything you’re doing makes sense. At least that’s the way it’s worked for me.

DG: Yeah, definitely. The concept of self is completely augmented when you’re stripped down to your core and you’re puking or you’re cramping and you’ve got a headache from the altitude, it’s like there’s no Dominic Grossman who has a good job or has a comfy couch and a nice bed - there’s none of that. There’s just the trail and destination and the process of organically working through it. and you know, you always... I don’t know, things just get so much more cathartic and clear on the trail.

PG: Do you feel like running these distances helped you through any sort of existential feelings in life?

DG: I think that’s sort of the root of ... you know, you spend your childhood trying to figure out you know, what am I gonna do to be happy, what am I gonna do for a living, what am I gonna do to keep my feet on the ground and then you achieve a few things, you run a few errands and if you cross off a few basic human needs and then you’re like, okay I still want to be happy, I still wanna have fun and then it’s what’s gonna get you up in the morning and not grumble and think it’s just a pointless existence and this running or this “quote-on-quote running” that I do every day feels so necessary, feels like such a good opportunity to get up and do something cool.

PG: Can you talk a little bit about why you refer to it as “quote-on-quote running” and how you see this experience as being different from a more traditional road running?

DG: Yeah, when you think of a road runner, they’re essentially pretty linear, you know, there’s a controlled environment and they’ve just gotta move relatively in a straight line and there’s not a whole lot of acceleration or control that needs to be exuded. It’s kind of ploddin’ along. I think out here you’re constantly shifting gears, for example you may go between a hands on knees hike and then you may all of a sudden be breakin’ into a run and flyin’ down a hill and running is such a broad term, like what you’re really doing is, you’re very tactilely in touch with the terrain. You feel every little minute rock, every little minute step and so running would be like, at least as it’s defined in the traditional mindset, when people see someone joggin’ around the neighborhood or running down the street, this is almost more like X-wing vs Tai Fighter, you’ve gotta have some aggressive and heightened awareness of yourself and the trail and the environment so it’s tough to put in the ...

PG: No, I think that makes sense. I mean even just the basic idea of it being a linear experience vs it being a non-linear experience ... that’s articulate enough for me. Everything else is sort of cake on that.

DG: Yeah. Yeah, all the left and right and up and down. You know, running would be efficient and this is like some of the toughest terrain - if you want to run a 100 miles efficiently you should just go run down the road for a 100 miles. This isn’t just about running, it’s about adventure, it’s about passion, it’s about challenge, it’s about meaningful achievements. It doesn’t matter if anyone else cares about it but for you, you know you ran across that mountain range and you survived it and you experienced it rather than you just crossed off 100 miles.

PG: Awesome. I want to hear your thoughts on shredding and how it relates to non-linear running?

DG: It’s like, it may not sound articulate to say “Oh, I shred” but it’s completely accurate. Why do you run? You can be all deep and say “Oh I run to become a better person” and blahblahblah but really you run to have fun, you run to play, you run to enjoy the world and enjoy your life and shredding, that’s the fun part of running, when you’ve got this rush of adrenalin and everything starts to move in slow motion because you’re thinking so fast and your brain’s so sharp and you may be flying at like 12 mph out of control on a rocky trail which doesn’t seem fast but it’s very fast when it’s just your ankles and your feet and your arms but when you’re shredding, you’ve got this heightened awareness of everything going on you can smell the trees that are flying by you, you can sense a rock slowly tumbling around your foot. You can make micro articulations with your ankles and your feet and perfectly grip and paw off the ground and then you feel this sense of freedom too, like you can jump and fly through the air and be in complete control and keep on tearing apart the terrain, you know, picking your line and it’s intense and it’s also completely gratifying and a complete indulgence of the soul, really, like the body is just the vehicle for the soul flying, you know. And you’ll think about it, like when you have a really good shred fest, you’ll think about it for a few days...

PG & DG: (laughter)

DG: You’ll be sitting at work and you look at a picture or something from the run and because the experience was so intense and so precise you can think about it a few days later and go right back to the moment. You can smell the bark on the trees and you can see the dirt flying under your foot and you don’t even think about it like you think about everything else in life. You think about it like it’s your primal need you know, like on the level of like women or food and stuff. Yeah. Super primal.

PG: Awesome. How about food? What are some of the things that keep you goin’? Out there, maybe some of the weirder things you need on the trail?

DG: It’s pretty much varieties of sugar like there’s gels of different types of carbohydrate syrups, there’s chews, there’s bars that are nutritionally like slightly above a candy bar, (laughter) ...

PG: Yeahyeahyeah (laughter) but they keep you goin’. DG:! Yeah, like a little bit of fat, a little bit of protein.

PG: I think the guy you had mentioned that ran 30 miles on his 30th birthday, is he the one who eats pizzas?

DG: Yeah yeah. Like rolled the pizza...
PG: like ate a quarter of it ...
DG: Yeah, like a burrito.
PG: You don’t get into anything like that ... (Laughter)

DG: Ah, well, I could eat a slice of pizza if I wasn’t going super fast but yeah, I kinda eat just stuff that’s kind of neutral but calorie dense so something that doesn’t have too much dairy maybe or stuff like that but I guess weird stuff like I’ll get cravings for potato chips for the salt, I’ll slam a can of Coke in 20 seconds, and keep chuggin’ down the trail.

PG: Yeah..... Well how about advice you would give to the kids interested in doing this?

DG: You know, I think there’s a type of person that doesn’t know they’re going to be good at this until they try it? And they’re kind of the person that really enjoys nature in ways that are very atypical. You know, you grow up and you go on a nature walk and you’re kind of bored out of your mind cause you’re just walkin’ slow and you know you’re not really doin’ much but there is a kind of person that has an appreciation for flow, an appreciation for being in touch with their body and with nature and if you’re into that you know, to give it a try and even if you don’t know just give it a try, you know, jog up a trail or maybe hike and run uphill if it’s a little steep and run down hill and push yourself a little bit more each day and try to be a little bit smart and have rest days and step back weeks where you do a little bit less. But kinda keep on being curious, keep being inquisitive about what is possible because no one achieves what this sport has become by just being patient and quiet, you know you have to be a little bit of a counter cultural mindset that this is not normal but it is okay and it is right and it is true and you know, I think it’s almost religious in some ways because you start to make decisions in life based off of what’s natural and what’s true to yourself. You don’t make decisions based off of what’s societal impulses and you know, pressure of like “drink a Coke and be happy”, you know, “No, I wanna go run and sweat and breathe super hard and destroy my legs” and when I sit down at the end of the day I have a big smile on my face that no one can take off and you know, no one’s gonna have a commercial that’s gonna convince 7 million people to do that, you know, but if you understand that there’s a deeper reason for it, that there’s good times and if you keep running and you keep pushing the limits a little bit you’re gonna get to these really amazing highs and I can say that you’ll never forget the moment you when finish the longest distance to date. So you do a 50k and then you do a 50 miles and then 100k and 100 mile, it’s like as you cross that finish line you just look at the world in a completely different way and you’re not so critical of whether it’s possible or not, you believe it and it’s a pretty worthwhile pursuit.

PG: Awesome. Thank you so much.

DG: Yeah.

PG: I think that’s good. It’s perfect.

Dominic Grossman

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